There are a lot of sayings in the Aviation Community to prove various points. One of them fits this story perfectly:

“Being a pilot consists of long periods of boredom speckled with moments of sheer terror”

This has never described my career. Terror is a very STRONG word. I’ve been scared and on edge at times, but ‘Terror’ is on a whole level of it’s own.

Well, I can now say that I have experienced Terror as a pilot. And I’m not proud of it.

Several weeks ago I was flying in the Pacific North West near Seattle, with all of it’s Aviation History and culture. I love being in places like this where the makeup of the community pretty much revolves around aviation.

While I was up there I wanted to see several places that I had come to enjoy in Flight Simulator, one being an airfield scenery accurately depicted by ORBX. This place is called ‘Concrete‘.

The world of Flight Simulator is inviting and holds a level of invulnerability that real pilots don’t get to have the luxury of dealing with. In the real world, all bets are off.

Of course, I don’t have unrealistic expectations of the vast abyss that makes up the differences between real world and the flight simulator world.

So, the romantic world of Flight Simulator was turned on it’s head when I experienced this real world takeoff out of Concrete. Now, don’t accuse me of thinking the real world is like flight simulator because I’ll be the first to say it’s totally different. And I point out WHY it was different below.

You have probably already watched the horrifying video above.

The video does not do a justice for what it was like to experience this myself. And really, I’m not trying to build this up into something bigger than it actually was. This was literally the most horrifying moment of my life. That’s what you call Terror.

Analyzing the Situation

An interesting chain of events preceded this takeoff, looking back now.

  • I elected not to go direct to these small airstrips. Instead, we flew up north a bit and use about an hours worth of fuel. This lightened the load.
  • The strip we went to before this was also a short field, actually the exact same field length, and I was able to practice the short field maneuvers before we even got to this airport.
  • At the beginning of the video you hear me say, “I’m going to use every possible inch of runway”. Man, you can’t script it any better than that. This is of course something I learned early in my aviation career. A pilot cannot get back fuel left out of the takes, runway left behind him, or altitude left above him. Take what you can get.

Several major things of note happened once full power was applied:

  • I used all available runway before I took off, but lifted off about halfway down the runway.
  • Just as I rotate, you can see I turn the aircraft just a few degrees to aim for the only opening in the trees. This was not something intentional I did at all, and something I only saw once reviewing the video. These are instincts a pilot can build and something I did unconsciously.
  • There was an air pocket at that end of the runway (we knew, because we had flown through it on the arrival) and the aircraft didn’t climb well through that air pocket.
  • All that is ‘human‘ in me told me to ‘pull up!‘ but all of my training said ‘airspeed, airspeed, airspeed‘. This meant a lower nose attitude than was comfortable, but the reality is it was better than stalling and not having a chance to get out at all. This is VERY difficult to stick with.
  • The trees to the left and right, although they look close, aren’t as close as the trees underneath (if you didn’t see the trees underneath, re-watch the video)

Personal Note

As more of a personal note rather than an analytical note like above, this was the scariest thing I’ve ever felt. I truly didn’t know if I was going to make it. The only thing I could think of was airspeed, and my wife back home. Those were the only two things that crossed my mind for what seemed like a hundred times in those few intense seconds.

Once past the trees, I could breathe and start to burn off all that adrenaline, although my hands and body were still shaking from the intense infusion of adrenaline long into the night.

What I Learned

This was a very close call, to say the least. Every performance parameter was in place, the aircraft should have operated as ‘published’ in the documentation, but it didn’t. Because of many of the circumstances above (both good and bad) this ended with a very close call and a lesson learned.

So, what was the biggest lesson for me?

Know your personal minimums vs. the aircrafts ‘real’ minimums.

Although the handbook says you can do it, and everything ‘checks out’, know what you are and are not comfortable with. Also, know what your aircraft really CAN and CANNOT do.

Please Comment

Other than that, I’d like to open up the comments and hear from you. I realize I run the risk of being railroaded for even showing this, and many might call me stupid (although I did everything by the book) but this is something I want the world to be able to learn from.

So, let’s hear those comments.

Throttle On


  • Trevor

    Chris, thanks for showing this. Its not easy to open up to close calls but from what I can figure, the aviation industry is geared towards learning from mistakes and close calls.
    “In the real world, all bets are off.” This is exactly what makes AviatorPro so necessary. Right now I dont feel absolutely comfortable in all phases of flight in IFR conditions because I can’t promise myself i will be in front of the aircraft at all times. I can’t guarantee I will make it through the flight safely.
    One question I have. I notice the plane giving stall horn sounds just on liftoff. Does the plane actually accelerate faster in that near stall condition but free from the ground friction or getting another 5+ knots while still on the runway?

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      You know, that’s a really good question. I’ve gone over this scenario over and over again, and the only thing I can think of is that I actually made it. For me to then question myself asking if I could have done things differently, and it would have been different, I just don’t know.

      So, the aviator in me says I won’t do it again under those circumstances, i.e., aircraft, weather, weight, etc.

  • Leo

    Hi Chris,

    I’m really speechless now and i felt like i was there…that was brave of you to do.
    Can i ask you a favor please, can you do the same flight ( or at least the Take Off) on the flight sim… and talk about it a little bit.what need to be done and how to make it happen with out any problems.
    very interesting situation actually and i would like to know about it if possible.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Not a bad idea. I’ll have to think about it. To be honest, I don’t even want to go to the freakin’ airfield in FSX!

  • Carlos Zegarra

    Man that was close.
    The most interesting part is when the “human” part of you said “pull up”, “pull up” but the “pilot mind” in you kept it cool and asked for “airspeed”, and looked also for that opening between the trees.
    Chris that was very scary. Thanks God everything turn out fine and you are still with us.

    Regards
    Carlos Zegarra
    GCLP

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      It was an impressive display of what training and experience can do for a pilot. But, I’m not proud of it nor do I think that I got out by mere skill.

      Something like this puts a pilots vulnerability into check REALLY fast.

  • Patrick

    Holy smokes! I got an adrenaline boost from just watching it and even though I already knew that you were going to make it, obviously. Wow… very glad you made it through that.

    I had a similiar “Oh Crap!” moment, although it wasn’t in an aircraft but when driving a car: I was cruising along the highway on the right lane when the guy in front of me slowly changed to the left lane. Shortly after that I saw why he did so. There was something shiny lying on the road ahead and I quickly realized that it was a bundle of bicycles that must have dropped off someone’s transport rack. The left lane was too full to change in time myself and on the shoulder there were some people, probably the owners of the bikes trying to pull them off the road at some time. All I could do without ploughing into other cars or the people on the side of the road was to hit the brakes, since I knew that there was enough room behind me to stop and give other people time to slow down/stop as well.

    I managed to bring the car to a hold before hitting the bikes and checked the rear view mirror for oncoming traffic and a gap on the left lane to pass the bikes, because the guys on the shoulder still didn’t dare to step on the blocked road to get them. And then I saw it: a big ass truck steaming ahead with full speed on my lane, coming right at me… it was obvious that he didn’t notice that I had stopped and that he didn’t try to brake at all. Everything went into slow motion at that point… I thought “This is it, I’m going to die now”! But then I realized that I still had a chance, shifted into 1st gear and just went for a small gap on the left lane while fully accelerating. That might still have caused a bad crash but I rather wanted to take my chances with a passing car than with a 50 ton truck! For some reason I managed to squeeze myself into the flowing traffic on the left without hitting anybody and I saw the truck passing behind me with merely a seperation of a meter or so between my car and his killer-bumper. He ran right over the bikes while the people on the shoulder jumped for cover into the bushes beside the road. Luckily no one was hurt.

    So, I think I know how you felt and my breathing was the same as yours after that. Too close for comfort! ;)

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      “Too close for comfort” is a great way to sum it up.

      Way to think on your feet, man. Thankfully there aren’t a lot of dumb pilots out there or pilots towing bikes on their airplanes.

      Generally the runway is debris free and the pilots in the air have some sense of common sense. Seems hard to come by these days!

      Someone is watching out for us, or, we just had a very sharp moment of the human mind.

  • Mark Tuma

    Chris I could feel the moment of fear just watching it from here! What made it such a close thing? Is it just that your aircraft no longer performs as spec?

    Glad you made it man…

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      When we landed (the opposite direction) there was a thermal that we hit. I believe on the ensuing takeoff and climb, we hit that ‘soft spot’ in the air and it really did a number on the climb performance.

  • Jean-Charles Lemieux

    Hi Chris,
    When I saw that flight I relived a similar situation with my brother in law several years ago. We departed Lac Mégantic, Quebec, Canada, with a Cessna 150, to fly to some private runways in the vicinity. After landing in St-Romain, on one of his friend’s private strip, we went for coffe. Once we return to the aircraft and taxied to the end of the gravel runway, which was not very wide, I told my brother in law that we should push the aircraft right to the very end of the runway as there was about 30 to 40 feet behind us. He told me that he had taken off several time from that field and there was really no problems. I had fown quite often and that made me uneasy, but I trusted his knowledge and experience with the aircraft. As you said lets do it. Well he said in french “On y va”, and we were on our way. As we got to the middle of the runway I could sence that he was getting concerned, he said it not lifting as usual, and I could see him pulling a bit more, in short stroke, on the yoke, luckily he eased the yoke a little bit forward and we just managed to clear the trees but a few feet. Once we both regained our breath and composure, he told me that he should have listened to me when we were at the end of the runway prior to taking off.
    The big mistake we did was that we forgot the he normally flew alone. Well at the time I weighted 185 pounds, and that is just enough to put you in the trees.
    Although this reminded me of a bad experience, I am happy that you had a powerful aircraft and that you made it OK. Experience, and the gut feeling that made you turn slightly, make you do wonderful things. Best of luck, and Throttle On.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Wow… So you know the feeling. There is nothing like it, is there?

  • Bruce

    Wow my heart is still raceing.

    A few questions though. Given that Concrete rw length is 2609ft
    What was the recommended t/o distance for your a/c on the day? I suspect that you were very close on limitations?

    Reminds me of the story of “Old Pilots” & “Bold Pilots”

    hey Chris take it steady, lesson learnt the hard way sometimes hurt!

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      You can see the aircraft lifted off with plenty of runway left.

      The climb is what really did me in. That ‘soft spot’ in the air just didn’t want to allow me to climb. It was quite odd.

      As I said, everything checked out performance wise but, these invariables can’t be ‘calculated’.

      This is what makes aviators great. Although the handbooks lied, I was still able to get out of it. Just goes to show you can’t plan yourself out of a sticky situation.

  • Tony Baldo

    Hey Chris,

    I viewed the clip earlier today, but was initially speechless and just couldn’t respond to it. I guess the best and most important thing I can say now is Thank God you instinctively relied on your training (and a subconscious boost from the thought of your wife) to make a split millisecond decision to steer to the tree opening while keeping the nose down thereby gaining speed and ultimately altitude. It may or may not be an understatement for me to say “lesson learned” on your part, but it’s somewhat of a bittersweet visual example that all of us trainees here in Aviator Pro can learn from, regardless of how hard it might be to watch.

    Take care and be well :-)

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      You know, the ‘decision’ to turn for the trees wasn’t a decision at all. It was something I just did instinctively and didn’t even know I had done it until I reviewed the video.

      It was quite the mental battle, although it was very short, to just keep that airspeed.

      Stall= Hit trees for sure.
      Airspeed with chance of tree= chance of getting out alive.

  • jnes1021

    Chris I have flown into Concrete so many times in PNW FSX that I knew exactly where you were before reading your text … man PNW and Concrete on FSX is amazing for us computer pilots and there you were at the real thing … … Could it be that you lifted off too early before hitting maybe 80 knots vs… your usual 62 – 65 knots? I am amazed that they have trees at the end of so many runways …

    good work …

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      I don’t think it was that I lifted off too early. I lifted off just after Vr.

  • Tomaz

    Man, that was scary! I’m kinda speechless after seeing this.

  • Arjun

    Very well done Chris.

    A big hats off to you for not pulling up too early.

  • Eric

    wow..speechless for a moment here.. I guess we all have these moments in our live, but you have the guts [and a video] to show it. I made me rethink my FS-Flying-style and it confirmed my pleasure being into Aviator Pro. We learn a lot here Chris! Its not getting into a plane, press the F4-key and take off anymore from me, I actually look at runway lengths, weights and performance charts as of lately. I intend to get my private liscence one day and I honestly think I will fail that because of bad habits of flying without thinking in FS for over 20 years. Aviator Pro might actually make me a better pilot in real life later on..

    Glad you survived that moment! Hope it will not cause you to never fly short strips again as moving into Alaska will bring you plenty of those :) Is the Bonanza moving too or is it going to be a Bush Plane there?

    Anyway, thanks for sharing this!
    Eric

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      The Bonanza isn’t going with me. It’d be useless in Alaska ;)

      You know, you’ll be already when you go to the real world and fly. Don’t worry too much about what you learned in FS to mess up your real flying. In fact, in most cases it only helps.

  • Eric

    oh, I forgot to ask: Would extra flaps at last moment give you the extra lift for a short moment? I wondered about if it makes sense should the trees actually be unavoidable. In FS it seems to work, but I’m not sure if thats correct.
    Eric

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      I really doubt that’s correct, and I wouldn’t want to add flaps last second. Maybe that’s an actual advanced maneuver some bush pilots use but I’ve never heard of it before.

      When I fly, I don’t rely on what I think I know from FS. It’s a real world out there with tons of variables FS will probably never get right.

      • Flamin_Squirrel

        DO NOT use flaps to try and clear obstacles. Flaps reduce your lift/drag ratio. You’ll get extra lift, but you’ll get far more extra drag – you’d have hit the trees if you’d used flaps.

        What flaps do do is allow you to get off the ground sooner, i.e. from short strips (but without obstacles), but getting off the ground wasn’t your issue in this case.

        Good video!

  • raju

    WOW that was really impressive and scary!!
    GREAT WORK!

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Thanks. I can’t say I’m really impressed and want to give myself a pat on the back, but I’m glad we got out of it.

  • Bruce

    I’ve just watched that t/o again & I still expect it to end up differently with the FAA watching the tape post accident.

    I truely admire your courage in allowing us to share this moment, you could easily have just hidden it from us. But looking back over all your videos you have never been shy of showing us the good & the bad. Not that this was necessarliy a mistake (you were within limits) You just got dealt a bit of Murphy’s Law ( if it can go wrong it will go wrong ) Your skill in maintaining your flying speed meant you are here to relay the tale–be thankful for that. Besides who would replace you on AvPro?

    I once flew with a captain who looked at the limits & then added a bit for his wife & then a bit more for each of his kids, he lived to be a very old pilot!

    God speed and stay safe.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      “I once flew with a captain who looked at the limits & then added a bit for his wife & then a bit more for each of his kids, he lived to be a very old pilot!”

      I like that, very, very cool.

      As you said, I was within limits and everything, but Murphy had different ideas that day.

  • Dave Taylor

    Wowee, thanks for sharing Chris but we all love you mate. Sometimes when a young man take unnessacery risks in life. This has got be one of those times for you. We are a bit like Turkey Cocks believing we are beyond harm but the truth is, we aren’t.

    Watching this video in HD was like being there and it frightened me as I reckon it did you too? We have to consider at these times who we might leave behind if something goes wrong and what would be a deep loss for them and learn.
    I am sure that if this was carried out by your wife instead of you (assuming she had the same skills of course) you would be mad at her?

    If I was you, I would not let her see what you get up to Chris otherwise you could find yourself grounded mate hahaha.

    Good luck and keep safe Chris, we in the FS world want you to be around for a long time, you are OUR asset and I want you to get to my age (68) so you can enjoy what you do forever.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Hey Dave,
      Fortunately this was not a ‘risk’ I took as everything was supposed to be just fine. I explained all of that to my wife when I showed her the video and let her know all the details. It was a weird situation that took some getting out of, but thankfully I had prepared all day so the risk (normal takeoff risk in my mind) was very low.

  • Richard

    Chris that was amazing and I’m kind of speechless. Glad you’re still here! It’s a brilliant demonstration of doing the right thing rather than what seems to be right. Also illustrates the old adage: It’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, rather than in the air wishing you were on the ground. Thanks so much for sharing this.
    Rich

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Very true. Everything should have been fine, but it wasn’t, and we had to deal with what we had. The aircraft just didn’t want to climb for one reason or another. It’s really easy to speculate what caused that, but the moral of the story is that we had plenty of power curve on our side to get out of it, as we weren’t fully (or even close) loaded.

  • Ted Wagner

    Well, it’s nice to see Concrete for real. But, wow Chris.

    The pocket of air was also quite noticible in your film too. I noticed before you turned around there, the wind was blowing pretty well.

    Good to know your training held you through!

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Thanks Ted. It was a great learning experience.

  • Robert Barber

    Nice demonstration of your mind operating on autopilot. WIthout your experience you may have had to actually take time to think about what to do. The outcome may well have been very different.

    Thanks for the lesson, especially to those of us who do not have (nor wish to have) a PPL. Glad you made it. I’m looking forward to seeing what you do with this gift you’ve been given.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      The thing about experience in this that gets to me isn’t the takeoff itself, but what happened prior with burning off extra fuel and taking my time to get my ‘Mojo’ back on the ground and so on.

  • Ralston

    Holy scheisse man… i got chills thinking about a real person having to live through that as I was watching the video….

    Glad to know your ligaments are all still there.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Yup, we’re all safe and smarter for it.

  • signmanbob

    That’s unbelievable. When I was watching the airplane lift off the runway, I was thinking that it seemed to be happening a little slow.
    I’m sure am glad you made it, of course, and I know you are too, but what is the story here? Does everyone that takes off of this runway have a near-death experience? What could you have done differently? Is this Bonanza just not the aircraft to use at this kind of runway because it doesn’t have good enough STOL capabilities?
    I mean this is not a clearing at a picnic area that you left from. It’s a paved runway, supposedly made for aircraft! What if you lived in that area and had to use that runway several times a month?
    Do you:
    A. Buy a different airplane?
    B. Get used to the near death experience?
    C. Say goodby to your wife with a little more sincerity?
    D. Don’t take any passengers?

    Thank you for sharing this video with us and please,when it comes to questionable airstrips, just stick with FSX. I’m really glad you’re ok.

    Bob

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Hey Bob,
      The Bonanza isn’t really meant for this type of operation. This would probably be a piece of cake in a Cessna of any sort (high wing, I mean).

      There is a STOL kit you can get for the Bonanza that creates better airflow over the wing and really would have helped out in this situation, but it also reduced cruise efficiency. Because this type of airfield is a rarity for us, we don’t have that kit.

      But, that’s about it. The Bonanza should have been good at this airfield. All signs were a go, and performance was fine, but there were just some weird conditions.

  • Charlie Chew

    Great video, Chris. Glad you pulled through. FS Break hosts are becoming an endangered species, and we need to preserve the ones we’ve got.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Ain’t that the truth.

  • Chris

    Chris

    Things to remember to pack on your next trip…

    1. Big A__ Chain saw. Show those trees whose boss.
    2. Depends, Adult, extra absorbent. 2 for each person.

    Man you scared the Carp out of me just watching this.

    Brought to mind a similar situation when I was a 15yr old and we flew out of a private gravel field in Canada. Later found out the pilot had just received his wings about 2 1/2 weeks prior. Had a retroactive breakdown from that one.

    I remember reading an article about poor weather flying once that said to hold the plane down a few seconds longer than usual to get a few feet of “jump” when you finally let the bird loose. Do you think this might have helped you clear the trees a little higher in this instance?

    Great video though.
    Don’t make any more like this please.

    I’m gray enough now as it is.

    Chris

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Do you mean hold the plane down on the runway or accelerate in ground effect longer?

      • Chris

        Hold the plane down on the runway and when you let her go you get a big pop or initial jump of hieghts.

        • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

          I made it out alive with my technique. Are you willing to bet your life on your technique?

  • http://keith.tristesse.com Keith Smith

    I applaud you for posting it, and glad you survived. The slight left turn was the right course of action. In fact, I’m surprised that it wasn’t part of the plan. Short field ops with obstructions require some extensive planning. It’s not a simple matter of getting the aircraft off the ground before the end of the runway (unlike, say, a short field with no obstructions). The fact that the slight left turn gave you a significantly shorter obstacle to clear should’ve made it a more obvious and conscious choice.

    4 comments:
    1) seriously consider implementing a sterile cockpit environment at and below 1000ft AGL. I recently made this transition after flying with some very chatty co-pilots and passengers. You guys don’t appear to be 100% focused on the task at hand (although, I’ll give it to you, that was some funny dialogue). Although it wasn’t the cause of the drama in this case, it wouldn’t have hurt.

    2) Were you climbing at Vx to clear the obstruction? If not, why not? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a big Vx fan…but for THIS situation, it seemed like it was the perfect time to use it. You needed maximum height in minimum distance. Also, the stall warning horn generally doesn’t mean the plane is about to stall (I know that sounds odd). Your departure stall training hopefully taught you that you still have some alpha in reserve.

    3) Be VERY weary of relying on the published book numbers. Market forces demand that manufacturers have little choice but to make those look as good and shiny as possible. This means, brand new engines, brand new, perfectly balanced prop, perfectly inflated and maintained tires, spotless airframe with perfect rigging, professional test pilot…the list just goes on and on and on. In fact, I pretty much stopped using them altogether. The ONLY time a book number is useful is when you have LESS runway than the book says you’ll need…then you’re HOSED. Other than that, I wouldn’t count on it for anything. Instead, I know how much my plane generally needs to get off the runway under a variety of conditions…that’s useful, real world information.

    4) Spend some real time looking at the wind and the surrounding area in the future. Given the wind direction, the trees and surrounding topography, and downdraft should’ve been expected. If it would’ve been ‘real close’ in perfect conditions…then the addition of the potential downdraft should’ve raised a red flag.

    I say none of this in judgment…these were all very easy mistakes to make. I may have done exactly the same thing, in fact. Now that you’ve posted this…I won’t. So, thank you for sharing.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Keith,
      In my mind, no mistakes were made. So, let me answer you points 1-by-1. I understand you’re just trying to be helpful, and I really appreciate that.

      1) In my own flying, that is possible. Unfortunately I fly around most of the time with executives that are usually ‘the boss’. I’m thankful I just get the weight and balance I want and I let things like the sterile cockpit slide. With that said, even they know the rules but they still speak up a lot.

      On this particular flight, I was flying with buddies and they are both pilots. It’s a situation where I want those guys there to talk if they see something and want to point it out. This is totally fine with me and I rule I wouldn’t plan on changing.

      Of course, it depends on the situation as well. I’ve had plenty of times where instead of saying ‘may I have a sterile cockpit please’ I’ve told everyone to ‘shutup so I can focus on the landing’.

      Regardless of the non-sterile cockpit, I was 100% focused on what I was doing.

      2) I was climbing at Vx. You heard someone else mentioned the stall horn chirping. That is because I was at Vx, and doing absolutely everything I could.

      3) I’m with you on this one. The numbers are a joke. According to the numbers we should have been doing 1200 FPM out of the airport, even where we lifted off halfway down the runway.

      4) That’s a good piece of advice, although, I must say that I fly in mountainous terrain all the time so it is nothing new to me. I disagree that the downdraft should have been expected. If you can explain why it should have been expected that might be quite helpful to me in the future.

      The truth of the matter is that sometimes conditions are out of my control. In fact, they always are. This was one of those situations that I simply had to get out of.

      Looking back, I would have planned for the area more. But even then, all bets are off.

      • http://keith.tristesse.com Keith Smith

        Chris,

        Thanks for the well-structured and thoughtful reply. It’s refreshing to come across pilots who are open to suggestions.

        1) ‘sterile cockpit’, to me at least, doesn’t have to mean complete silence…it just means no discussion that doesn’t have a specific purpose for the flight be it safety related, or calling out checklist items. If you felt you were 100% focused (despite the chatter prior to takeoff), then that’s really what’s important, and you’re doing fine.

        2) *gulp* if you were already at Vx…then….good lord…I’m so glad it worked out the way it did because you had nothing left to give!

        3) no wonder it came as such a rude shock, then. You were definitely ripped off, in terms of book performance.

        4) two causes of potential downdraft…a) you’re flying towards a lee side of those nearby hills at your 11 o’clock, and the wind is coming from 11 o’clock if memory serves, b) you’re flying out of a clearing towards a set of relatively tall trees. You’re on the lee side of the trees, relatively to the wind….so a downdraft might be expected there, too. I fly out of Lincoln Park, NJ…we don’t have many hills here, but we do have one right next to our strip. When the winds blow over that ridge (the strip is on the back side of the hill, in terms of the prevailing NW wind), downdrafts are absolutely routine. Similarly, there is almost always a downdraft when clearing the tree line during landing in similar winds.

        Keith

  • David

    Chris,
    As a fellow pilot I will say nice job in a sticky situation and for sharing this. Perhaps some constructive comments…

    I would be concerned about what factors decreased the performance. For example, I think I am hearing your stall horn chirping starting at 1:18 through 1:30. This simply shouldn’t be unless something is amiss or your planning was off. I hear at least 2 pax. Have you rechecked your weight and balance? How sure are you concerning fuel on board? I assume your POH has the distance to clear a 50ft OBS vs density altitude at various weights. Compare that to the actual performance and if drastically different, have your A&E check things like fuel flow, etc. If your planning was off, make if better in the future.

    Then I would mention sterile cockpit. In landing and take-offs I think you need to maintain a rule of no chatter. You don’t need distractions and since airlines maintain this rule, it’s good enough for me too.

    Anyway, it’s already been said. Sometimes all planning is to no avail and a pilot has to do “pilot stuff” and that you did. A couple of times ice has been my heart stopper, though it wasn’t in the forecast.

    Keep the greasy side down and happy flying.

    David

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Hey David,
      All performance checked out.

      The stall horn can easily go off if you are getting bumps of thermals while at 85 knots Vx. Perfectly normal. It’s not a very comforting feeling, actually, which is why I don’t regularly climb out at Vx and elect to go Vy first. So, you weren’t hearing an indication it was near stall.

      The weight and balance was perfectly fine and we had about half of our useful load left, which is a LOT of power curve, especially for an aircraft with a Turbo.

      Also, nothing is wrong with the aircraft. We did a very thorough inspection about 24 hours later and found nothing out of the ordinary. The airframe has less than 500 hours on it and the aircraft is maintained impeccably.

      Sterile Cockpit is a good rule. The guys on this flight would have certainly honored that, but what I’ve found is usually passengers don’t ‘get it’ when you say everything needs to be quiet. At least the people I usually fly with.

  • Tom Green

    Chris – a question for you – what was the speed and direction of the wind?

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Tom, the wind was variable from left quartering.

      • Tom Green

        Left quartering headwind or tailwind?

  • Joe

    So, why does it look like you never climb on the video? Even after clearing the trees and passing the river, it looks like you’re still just above the trees and gaining airspeed. Was the climb performance really that bad for that long? Doesn’t look like your gaining any altitude all the way to the end of the video.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Once the camera view dips away from the trees, it’s hard to tell how good the climb rate is. It was much better after clearing the trees.

      But, as per the post information in text, there was so other weird stuff going on.

  • Earl

    Chris: I just saw this video and am wondering if you could provide more details.

    Some questions: 1) what aircraft type, is it turbocharged and was the engine generating full power? 2) where were you vis-a-vis gross weight? 3) what was the OAT and density altitude? 4) what was the wind direction and speed? 5) you mentioned experiencing an air pocket at the departure end when landing. Did you land downwind or did the wind direction change after landing? 6) did you use flaps?

    I’m glad everything turned out OK but I guess the short answer is in hindsight this departure under the circumstances was not a good idea. I am trying to better understand what about the departure that departed from what the book said you should see.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      1) G36 Bonanza (Same as the A36 but with the G1000). Engine is turbocharged and on takeoff roll it was producing 29 inches of mP and 2700 RPM.
      2) We had half our useful load on board, which puts us around 2300 pounds.
      3) Density altitude was around 1000ft.
      4) Wind direction was a left quartering headwind, I don’t know the speed. I’m guessing 5-10 knots. The airfield didn’t have automated weather.
      5) We landed downwind, so it was on the departure end when taking off.

      The departure was fine. We shouldn’t have had the crappy performance we did, and really the only way I can explain it is this ‘pocket of air’. The aircraft just didn’t want to climb once we were up. You can’t plan for that.

      • Leigh

        Looked up the Beech reference page to see what the factory rated useful load is for the G36 and was surprised to find it is only about 1100 lbs, same as a Piper Arrow with 180 hp, so if you still had 50 gallons of fuel and depending on how big you and your fellow pilots are you were fairly heavy. Anyhow, fly safe.

  • mike rowe

    I wouldn’t go so far as to say the POH lied or misled you. Remember those values are at specific values, etc. and all things must be taken into consideration as so many others have posted already. Looks like you stayed within ground effect which helped build airspeed. Glad you made it

    Disclaimer.: I’m not a pilot but have been studying a lot before I begin my training in the next month or so.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      We should’ve been fancy and free according to the numbers. We should have been at least 700 FPM after takeoff. The distance was pretty standard and worked out well, but the aircraft didn’t want to fly in that air.

      Glad you’re studying a lot! Take any lesson you learn and be smart about it. But also realize, like you said, the numbers are misleading. Half the crap they want to teach you doesn’t matter as a pilot.

      My textbook isn’t what got me over those trees. It was experience and a cool head. I’m not bragging by any stretch of the imagination, just giving you a warning that your FAA written tests isn’t what will save your tail.

  • Robin White

    This video was very disturbing on several counts. It was like an “in the cockpit” view of the A36 crash at Cameron Park, California (see it on You Tube). At Cameron Park, a Model 36 attempts a maximum performance departure from a fairly modest runway on a hot day and without using flaps. The exercise ended in disaster. Here, you merely flirted (or petted heavily) with catastrophe. Did you use T/O flaps? What was the cabin load? Why on earth would you cycle the gear (which increases drag as the inner gear doors of a G36 open, then close) when you were barely airborne?
    Finally, have you taken a Bonanza proficiency course?
    Robin White

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Robin,
      I’ve evaluated that Cameron Airpark crash many times and I came to several conclusions.

      A. Bring up the gear ASAP.
      B. Airspeed.

      The only reason people had to die at that accident was because the pilot stalled and broke the backs of the people in the back. The flip of the aircraft didn’t do much damage and they would have been ok.

      I did use T/O (approach) flaps. The cabin was not loaded at all. We had about half our useful load left.

      I didn’t cycle the gear. I pulled the gear up.

      I have not taken the Bonanza Proficiency Program, but I have gone to Flight Safety for this aircraft. BPP has had several accidents of their own while trying to teach students impossible turns. Not exactly the sign of a good school, in my mind, but they actually do a very good job at what they do.

      Are you a Bonanza Pilot?

  • Robin White

    Chris:
    Yes. I owned N2111Q- a straight 36- for nine years. Flew it through two engines; a 520 and then a 550. It had tip tanks, so I became very conscious of its performance limitations when heavy. I’m relieved to hear that you used T/O flaps (this was likely the Cameron Park pilot’s fatal error). By “cycling” I mean raising the gear. In a Bonanza, when you do this the inner gear doors open first, and until everything gets tucked away, the total drag on the a/c, and the performance penalty that comes with it, increases. It is marginally harder to accelerate with gear in transit. Personally, in a max performance departure, I would have left the gear alone until I was well clear of the treeline (though who knows? Extended, they might have hit those trees. You looked very, very close).
    The BPPP program is very worthwhile. I cannot say enough good about flying with instructors who know the airplane inside out. They have had thousands and thousands of individual operations and by simple odds a very, very few of them have not come out well (note that I am not a current ABS member, so no dog in this fight). Maybe Flight Safety is just as good. I don’t know.
    But a turbo G36 (is it TN? If so, which system? The older ones had a real issue with starving the engine for air and imposing takeoff penalties you might not expect)) should have handled this situation better. There’s some reason why it did not.
    Glad you were able to post the video.
    Robin White

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      First of all, it sounds like you have a lot of experience with the aircraft. I won’t question that.

      The gear cycle on the newer G36 is a total of 3 seconds. That is very minimal to get rid of all of that drag that the landing gear produces, which, in my mind is much worse that the gear doors for a few seconds.

      I’m not so sure the Cameron Airpark guy didn’t use flaps, but I am almost positive he would’ve done better for himself had he raised the landing gear.

      This G36 is TN with a Tornado Alley Turbo. It’s a system that was put on the aircraft in 2008, so it’s pretty much new.

      I agree that it should have handled this situation much better, especially with my preparation earlier in the day. We were light weight, I burned off fuel earlier and made sure I did the short field takeoff procedure on the nose.

      Thanks for the very intriguing thoughts. It’s always nice having an in depth conversation with a Bonanza guy. It’s pretty rare, though.

  • Carlton Milligan

    Chris.
    Thank the Lord that you were able to get out of that one unscathed. Your knowledge and expertise was surely evident in this one. Thanks again for everything and for sharing your experiences!

  • Rob

    Chris, from watching the video, the wind appears to be blowing harder than the 5-10 you state, and the grass and trees appear to be bending in the direction you took off. A lightly loaded 300 horsepower Bonanza would climb like a bat out of hell normally, so there has to be something you’re not telling us. Don’t get me wrong, you did a great job to get out of a bad situation, and I’m glad you survived, but what put you in that position is the question. A density altitude of 1000 feet at a field that’s 250 MSL is irrelevant when considering an aircraft certified to 18,500. My 150, with 2 people and fuel, would easily be at 500 feet by the end of the runway given the weather you stated, so the fact that you couldn’t climb enough to clear 85′ trees 800 feet from the end of the runway raises many questions. If it was a 20 year old Bonanza with an engine close to overhaul, might be believable, but a 2 year old Bonanza, not so much. You did say in the video that you would do that again, so you either knew it then, or have figured it out since, what “that” is. So, maybe, you can give us a few more details, I’d love to use the video to show my students what not to do.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Rob,
      Seriously. If you read through the comments and what I said in the post itself, that is the full truth of it.

      You setup the scenario perfectly in your head, just as I did. The wind really wasn’t THAT bad. Really, it didn’t take much. You would have seen a much larger crab angle into the wind if it was strong than 10 knots.

      It’s just a crazy, crazy situation and everything was setup fine, and everything says it should have been a breeze.

      That’s the full truth of it. Don’t know what else to tell you.

    • Earl

      Rob: I agree with you. An aircraft flying is pure physics so there is something going on here that apparently Chris hasn’t figured out. Either the engine was not putting out enough horsepower, the wind shifted to a strong downwind, there was a strong downdraft, the plane was overloaded or something. Chris seems to think it was some sort of downdraft at the departure end but from the video it is apparent that his problems started the moment he got out of ground effect as evidenced by the stall horn and him having to lower the nose to keep his airspeed up. Something happened in this near accident because all the facts as presented lead to the logical conclusion that he should have been able to climb at 700fpm minimum which would have been plenty high by the time he got to the end of the runway.

      • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

        Earl,
        Engine power was full on takeoff (as I stated with engine instruments in the green), we were NOT overloaded, and the windsock in the video clearly shows the winds as I discussed.

        A downdraft, maybe, but from what? And how do you see the downdraft?

        The stall horn squeaks all the time on takeoff, so that doesn’t prove anything.

        Anyway, I feel like I’m getting a bit defensive like this but I’m obviously not trying to hide anything, or I wouldn’t have shown the video.

        Nothing is missing and I’m not being secretive.

        • Earl

          Chris: Please don’t misunderstand my questions. I have no doubt you are telling us exactly the circumstances as you know them. And I don’t believe you are being secretive but clearly something is missing that you have not considered.

          I am not an aeronautical engineer but I am a geophysicist and I can tell you that flying is pure mathematics. Lift, thrust, drag, gravity, etc. can all be expressed mathematically for every flight under every condition. When you combine all the various factors you described it is just not mathematically possible that the plane did not perform reasonably close to expected. Therefore, either something that you described is not right whether you believe it or not or there is some other factor that none of us are considering. As for the latter as an explanation I can’t think of anything. I personally don’t think the downdraft idea is the answer. You were struggling to climb when you got out of ground effect long before you got to the end of the runway. And I think a strong downdraft would have a crosswind component and there is no evidence of that from the video. My best guess despite everything you describe is that for some reason the plane was not generating adequate thrust. I know you say it was but maybe someone with more expertise in engine performance could opine on whether you could have the RPM and MP indications and still not be generating full horsepower.

          I am trying to find a reasonable explanation otherwise we learn nothing from this near accident except shi! happens and sometimes we get lucky and survive. I just don’t believe in that concept and am struggling to learn something from this. Please keep up the dialogue and maybe we will come up with something.

          • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

            We are trying to figure this out on another website right now and it’s looking like I might have gotten behind the ‘drag curve’. This is one of the current theories that if I had stayed on the runway a bit longer, I probably could have pulled out of it a lot easier.

            There’s also talk about the procedure I used, which up to this point I thought was correct. The video down below, posted by Bob, shows exactly how I TRIED to perform this, but it just didn’t work.

            It turns out that leaving the gear DOWN and having FULL FLAPS might be an answer.

            There’s also talk that the book numbers for Vx are totally incorrect, by 20 knots or so.

            So we are looking into it with a very sharp eye.

            The good news is that we can ‘figure it out’ and prevent it from happening again.

            Even at that, there wasn’t good stuff at the end of the runway wind and downdraft wise, but it still probably shouldn’t have been THIS scary.

  • Hector Davila

    Hey Chris,
    I found out about this video from BeechTalk.com. They are actually having a nice little debate about the video which would be nice of you to chime in a bit over there if possible. One of the things that came up and something that I have curiosity about as well, is why you rotated as early as you did and let the stall horn come on. It is obviously a short runway, but you still had at least a couple hundred feet to go and the fact that the aircraft was loaded half its useful load, it just doesn’t make much sense to me that it wasn’t able to climb. There are obviously different things that can decrease performance such as engine roughness and pressure altitude, but a bonanza with the 300hp IO550 can climb allot better than that if you had let the airspeed come in. But of course, I can’t see the panel or anything so this is mere speculation and I am not accusing you of anything, sometimes crap happens. Another question I have is how you where able to make the camera be as stable as it was. Are you using a spring system of some kind?

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Roger, I’ll go over there and chat about it too.

  • David

    Hi Chris,
    One more thought. My turbo normalized TR182 required that I lean it fairly significantly (approx 25gph which was approx double cruise numbers). Full rich and it would not develop full power, which for me was 31″. Does the TAT supplement require full rich for take-off? Is 29″ max take-off power?

    David

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Some of the Bonanza engines are set to 31 inches, but when they reach the cruise levels you have to pull the power back. TAT states that it should be under the max (the max is 29.5 or something) although they had set mine to 31.5 when we first had the aircraft.

      The requirement is full mixture all the way to cruise, and even then, sometimes you have to use the aux fuel pump to get extra.

  • Tom Green

    Chris,

    Thanks so much for posting your video and for your incredibly constructive approach to all the comments. It’s a great opportunity for us all to learn something.

    One thing I’m wondering is the following: you are saying that everything was set up fine and it should have been a breeze, but it wasn’t. I fully believe you that you ran the numbers (and I have had similar but not so extreme experiences with take-off not conforming to the POH), but this doesn’t help me to avoid situations like that in the future.

    Are you really just saying “Oh well, these things happen, it was bad luck.” ?
    Or are you planning for more take-off safety margins in the future? And if so, what will they be?

    Or are you just hoping that whatever conditions you experienced on this take-off don’t happen again?

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Quoted from the post above
      “So, what was the biggest lesson for me?

      Know your personal minimums and the aircrafts ‘real’ minimums

      Although the handbook says you can do it, and everything ‘checks out’, know what you are and are not comfortable with. Also, know what your aircraft really CAN and CANNOT do.”

      In this case, a takeoff that wasn’t in the heat of the summer would help. So, morning or night.

      Or, just not doing it at all. It scared me enough to not want to attempt it regardless. In that case, I’d rather be alone.

      These conditions were greatly OUT of my control, but it doesn’t mean I can’t take more safety precautions and build my minimums better.

      There’s the stuff the manuals say you can do (which in this case, I wasn’t trusting anyway) and then there’s what you’re comfortable with. I wasn’t comfortable with this at all, which is why I’m not proud of it.

      It’s also the exact reason I decided to post it. Someone will learn a valuable lesson from it.

  • Reece

    I Praise God Chris that you and your friend are OK ! The first time I watch the video I could see were something was going wrong and you were adjusting you “Angle of Attack” to get airspeed. That was scary man! Will you show us the videos of the area you flew in?

    You are ok!!! Yeah!

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Yeah, I can show you guys more videos.

  • signmanbob

    Well Chris, I’m just glad I wasn’t in the back seat. I would have added a little over 200lbs and a hike back to the lodge.
    Please don’t take any more chances. We need our “AviatorPro”! If the runway is shorter than 5000 ft.,…divert.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Thing is I wasn’t even taking a chance, man! This was the weirdest situation I’ve ever faced as a pilot.

      Still trying to sort it out.

  • Peter Steele

    I admire your honesty in publishing this video. I fly in the UK and have never experienced anything as dramatic as you did – I hope I never will! Do you know any regular pilots from this airfield? I wondered if there is a history of the downdraft you described. I spoke to the regular pilots at one of the UK airfields I fly to – they warned me that when the wind is from the south you get a very high rate of sink over the numbers, so come in higher than usual. And they were absolutely right – scared the life out of me! Good job I took their advice!
    Might be worth posting something on the Concrete airfield website (if it has one).

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Not a bad idea. I know that some other guys I have been talking to were saying they’ve been in and out of there with little issues.

  • Robert Boudreau

    Chris,

    I’ve been reading these posts with with skepticism. I’m a private pilot, have been flying all 43 years of my life, and have a degree in airport management. I’m a mathematical person, so I crunched some numbers. Thanks to Google Earth, I took the times off of your video and used the feet measurements from Google to come up with some speeds, which should be pretty close. From the mid-point of the runway, where the taxiway intersects, to the end of the runway, 1137 feet, your groundspeed was 71 knots, and from the end of the runway to passing the tall trees, 825 feet, your groundspeed was 81 knots. Those speeds are well within the flight envelope and are adequate for climb performance, especially considering the flaps setting you describe and your having the gear up, and into the headwind you describe. You became airborn at 1200 feet, but with the stall warning chirping, so your acceleration was questionable, I know you talked about manifold pressure, but what was your prop setting. Were throttle, prop, and mixture all firewalled? Since it sounds like the camera was plugged into the intercom, we can’t hear the engine noise, so it’s hard to tell what the RPM was.

    As many have stated, flying is completely mathematical, so if the numbers add up, you fly, if they don’t, you don’t. I’m sorry, but your numbers just don’t add up. And since you admitted at the start of the video that you were going to use every inch of a runway that is much longer than needed, and that you needed your mojo, you seem to have known what was going to transpire. Your conversations at the start and throughout the video lead me to believe that this was a stunt and that you purposefully your lives in danger, and that of the people on the ground, since there is a road and houses under your flight path.

    When you are at the end of the runway, you see the leaves to the left showing the light-colored underside of the leaves. If it was a headwind, you wouldn’t see this, you’d only see that if the branches were being blown away from you. Knowing your ground speeds, the only way you wouldn’t climb would be because of a tailwind. And since your stall warning is going off even as you pass the trees, that is the only logical explanation.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Robert,
      Before I get into responding to your particular post, you need to take a step back. You were not there. You didn’t know the conditions. And now you are running off of assumptions with Google Earth.

      So before you continue on with your outlandish conclusions as to this being a ‘stunt’ you should realize I won’t stand for it. I wouldn’t ever do a stunt, and if I didn’t, I’m start enough not to put that ‘stunt’ online.

      So save me the headache.

      It was a really messed up situation that scared the hell out of me.

      So, let’s get to your post.

      “From the mid-point of the runway, where the taxiway intersects, to the end of the runway, 1137 feet, your groundspeed was 71 knots, and from the end of the runway to passing the tall trees, 825 feet, your groundspeed was 81 knots. Those speeds are well within the flight envelope and are adequate for climb performance, especially considering the flaps setting you describe and your having the gear up, and into the headwind you describe.”

      This all sounds correct to me.

      “You became airborn at 1200 feet, but with the stall warning chirping, so your acceleration was questionable,”

      I’m still of the mind that there were thermals at that end of the runway, but I couldn’t disagree with this. Regardless, I was at a safe flying and climbing airspeed.

      “Were throttle, prop, and mixture all firewalled?”

      Really? Of course they were. I checked this on the takeoff roll. At this point, I wouldn’t expect you to believe that, though.

      “As many have stated, flying is completely mathematical”

      I totally and completely disagree with your ‘completely’. Are mathematics involved? Sure. But so are a million other variables that your calculator will never figure out. Claiming that it’s all about mathematics is laughable.

      “I’m sorry, but your numbers just don’t add up.”

      But you’re the one that came up with the awesome Google Earth Numbers. Of course they match up. 71 knots off the ground and 85 knots in the climb. This totally explains the 71 knot rotation, 85 knot VX and the slight headwind. How doesn’t the math add up?

      “And since you admitted at the start of the video that you were going to use every inch of a runway that is much longer than needed”

      Can you recall the first time you took off from a runway with a REAL 50 foot obstacle? Were you nervous or totally calm?

      I was being cautious, and if you want to ding me for that, go do this exact takeoff in these exact conditions and use half the runway if you’re comfortable, I don’t know.

      I used other training I had learned to build even more buffer between myself and the trees ahead, which I was nervous about being a first timer to a short strip with a 50 foot obstacle.

      Of course I’m going to be cautious. Yet another ‘fault’ of mine that actually turned out to help me, yet it’s a flaw? Interesting.

      “and that you needed your mojo, you seem to have known what was going to transpire.”

      If I know what was going to transpire, I wouldn’t have done it. I would have waited it out.

      I got my ‘mojo’ back because we had just landed with a tailwind and I had to stop quickly.

      Yes, we landed with a tailwind. So I’m absolutely 100% positive your wind theory is incorrect.

      Again, ding me for something I did correctly. I wanted to get my focus before I had a go at this.

      ” Your conversations at the start and throughout the video lead me to believe that this was a stunt and that you purposefully your lives in danger, and that of the people on the ground, since there is a road and houses under your flight path.”

      You’re insulting.

      Why on God’s Green Earth would I do that? This wasn’t a stunt, so unless you have something useful to say with all of your fancy mathematics, your degree, and your 43 years of flying, don’t bother.

      “When you are at the end of the runway, you see the leaves to the left showing the light-colored underside of the leaves.”

      Wow, this sounds like Legolis from Lord of the Rings. You’re like some cool Elf Guy would can tell the direction of the wind by the sound of the wind in the trees and the way they look. That’s talent. You’re good, real good.

      “If it was a headwind, you wouldn’t see this, you’d only see that if the branches were being blown away from you. ”

      Wrong, because it WAS a headwind.

      “Knowing your ground speeds, the only way you wouldn’t climb would be because of a tailwind. And since your stall warning is going off even as you pass the trees, that is the only logical explanation.”

      Wrong.

      Nothing else to say really.

      Nice try, though.

      • Robert Boudreau

        Okay, first of all, I’m not trying to be insulting. Your post was all about blaming the performance of the plane, but as many of us have posted, that’s not exactly believable. I, as well as others, are simply trying to solve a puzzle, but the “numbers” you provide just don’t add up. I admit I’ve done some stupid things in a plane, so sorry for calling it a stunt, but some of your comments in the video do tend to open up that possibility. And many of us have expertise in other areas, so be careful what say. If somebody knowledgable in agriculture makes a statement, comparing it to a fictitious person and story is childish, but I’ll address that more later.

        Flying is about numbers, and numbers don’t lie, they are what they are. If the stall warning is going off while the plane has a 81 knot ground speed, then there has to be an explanation. You traveled half a mile with your stall warning going on and off, and couldn’t climb 85 feet over that distance? There’s something here not adding up. And, I’m sorry, did you actually state that you were at a safe flying and climbing airspeed? Really? You were flying thru the trees with your stall warning going off. That’s not my definition of safe.

        Flight 101 – Your engine, thru the prop, creates thrust, which, overcoming drag, creates airspeed. Airflow over the wings creates lift, lift counteracts weight, the faster you go, the more lift is created. All of these are numbers, drag and weight are generally fixed values, though in your case, raising the gear reduces drag. The weight of the plane is generally fixed, getting lighter as fuel burns off, but rarely does a plane gain weight while in flight (not counting ice). Drag will raise slightly as speed increases, but not by an amount that would make a difference here.

        In none of your posts did you state the prop setting, so excuse me for asking. I would certainly hope they were all firewalled, but how would we know if we don’t ask.

        Since the video started with you turning around, how would we know you had JUST landed? You could have been there for an hour for all we know. Oh, by the way, why did you land with a tailwind? And why would that mean that you would have to use all of the runway taking off, knowing you were going into a headwind? According to Airnav,the slope to clear trees at either end of the airport is the same, so you gained nothing by taking that risk.

        When you grow up in the country, you learn things, including figuring out wind effects on plants and trees. When the wind blows towards you, you see the darker tops of the leaves, when the wind blows away from you, you see the lighter bottom of the leaves. Sorry, that’s just the way God made it.

        Now, let’s talk about thermals. Thermals are columns of rising air caused by solar heating. The hot air rises, cools, then descends outside of the thermal, but it’s rate of descent slows as it gets close to the warmer ground, then flows towards the center of the thermal, where it repeats the process. So, if you were flying into a thermal, guess what, you would have a tailwind, then would reach the updraft, which would cause you to climb, kind of like sailplanes do.

        We are all trying to answer the question of ‘why’. Answering that question could be key to saving a life in the future. You were there, that’s a given, we weren’t, that’s a given, so we will ask what sound like difficult questions. They are not personal attacks, they are to gather information, and if the answers don’t add up, we ask more questions. It’s what the NTSB would do if you clipped a tree. Obviously, since we can’t see the instruments, we don’t know what they read, we can’t see the flap settings, engine controls, gear lever, etc., so we ask. If our questions and observations offend you, welcome to life, my friend.

        • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

          I have a very simple response to what you said, and I hope that everyone is watching.

          Some of what you said is true. I’ve got to give that to you. Facts are facts.

          Don’t discount the fact that you said everything in flying is mathematical.

          The conditions were what they were, you’re welcome to ask pertinent questions, but I’m not going to entertain this anymore.

          You’re insulting by saying that ‘the numbers don’t add up’. Really? The airspeeds (and thus, the ground speeds) were what they were.

          What doesn’t add up is why with the quote ‘Correct Airspeeds’ (which I am now doubting by talking to other Bonanza pilots) the aircraft didn’t perform the way it should.

          You’re welcome to speculate on the conditions on your own time, but let’s talk about the ‘why’s’ here rather than the ‘your numbers don’t add up’.

          Save your vast knowledge of the worlds conditions, the performance of the aircraft at the time, and all the other mathematical variables for somewhere else.

          With all these calculations you would have been thinking about way more than what was important in this situation, regardless of whether it was done right or wrong, which is flying the airplane and getting out of it. It’s counterproductive to flight safety.

          Let’s try to find the MISSING piece rather than the INCORRECT piece.

          The winds were correct.
          The aircraft was setup for takeoff.
          I did the procedure to the best of my knowledge.

          Either their was wind sheer at the end of the runway and/or there was a discrepancy with the takeoff procedure.

          The reality is that is was probably a mixture of both, but the facts of the situation I have stated remain.

          And your leaf reading vs. my visual reading of the windsock isn’t proof enough to make be believe the wind shifted that much in 2 minutes.

          I did the procedure as was published but something happened.

          So, let’s talk about one USEFUL thing at a time, or not at all.

  • http://none Bob Bement

    I don’t see how you had that much trouble at a 2600 ft. runway at 267 Ft. above sea level. After you kept the nose down and gained some airspeed you should of been able to pull the nose up and climbed at your best angle of climb. Here is a video of mine as I climb over some trees on a 1800 ft strip in Oregon City, OR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVJ6GRFv1Fw

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      SHOULD have is the key. But I couldn’t

      Thanks for the video, Bob.

      Talking over at BeechTalk.com, it sounds like there is some misunderstanding on what short field ops should be with the Bonanza.

      Some are saying to use full flaps and keep the gear DOWN for the entire climb.

      Others are saying keep the aircraft on the ground longer and ‘pop’ over the trees.

      Maybe great theories and it’s nice because they ACTUALLY start to answer some questions. Things I can actually improve on, rather than guesses and leaf reading.

      Thanks for sharing.

      Good job, again, and good video.

      BTW, when you pop that nose up, do you get a little stall chirp?

      Also, what kind of aircraft is this?

    • jnes1021

      love your videos Bob … especially the Flying B Ranch in Idaho … I have subscribed to your videos …

  • jnes1021

    I listened to the FS Break this AM … and thought two things … Brandon added nothing but comic relief throughout the flights all day when it was not the time to do so … It was too hard to get a sterile cabin with him in the right seat … and if he really wants to be a CFI I would not want to fly with him … he seems like the guy at the bar buying the drinks and making all of the noise …

    Brandon …Shut up!

    and also … the thread here is very interesting … especially from pilots like yourself … it might have been a day when you were not fully concentrating … maybe tired … maybe thinking of the move to Alaska … maybe listening to the guy next to you … but I believe especially after following you for these past three months … watching your takeoff at Concrete … it just did not seem like you …

    I understand from FS Break that you had a tire blow out at the next airport that might have been damaged on your downwind arrival at Concrete …

    if the worse had happened … they would have heard two guys laughing too much before the take off … the words ” love you man … ” would have echoed through my ears … I am so happy that you guys made your way through the trees and am glad that you are able to share this to figure it all out …

    If I were you Brandon would never fly with me … again

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Hey John,
      I’m going to have to disagree.

      Brendan is 16 and shows awesome knowledge for that age. One day he will make a safe and competent instructor that I’m sure even I could learn something from.

      I would fly with Brendan again in a heartbeat.

      I don’t feel as though I was distracted from the task at hand that day, but it may look like I am.

      Although it may ‘look’ like it wasn’t me, it was. There were circumstances in play that were very difficult for me to get out of. Things of which I’ve been teaching you guys all along.

      It was an unfortunate chain of events that lead to something quite scary.

      There is certainly something to learn here, and maybe one of those things is the cockpit chatter

      But I am not of the belief that all pilots should do is sit there and be procedural all the time. That’s not the real world and if any pilot says he never has ‘chatter’ in the aircraft, he’s a liar.

      Obviously with larger airliners where the aircraft is complex enough that there needs to be a stringent CRM environment, that’s a different story. I can totally understand that.

      But this is a Bonanza, an aircraft often, used for pleasure, but it is also to be taken very seriously.

      I did the procedure to my knowledge, on the nose, distracted or not.

  • Bob Bement

    Chris, If I hold it on 60 miles/hour I don’t get the stall warning to come on. If I have to do any turning I would want to carry a little additional airspeed in that case. My plane is a 1959 Cessna 182 and I was alone with almost full fuel.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Hey Bob,
      Completely different aircraft. The numbers would be REALLY different in a Bonanza.

      Cessna’s were made for short field ops. Although Bonanzas aren’t supposed to be BAD at it, they are more of a ‘cruiser’ and ‘fast traveler’.

      But, you probably know that.

  • Muhammad Rahim

    Well I only have about 200 hrs in a Cessna 172. Got my PPSEL back in 1999 (KTEB) but I’m no longer active/current so I don’t have much to offer in actual experience. My only max performance takeoffs and landings were during my training and during my checkride :-)
    I’ll say this…. Chris thank God you’re ok. I admire your courage in sharing this with those of us that truly like to learn as well as those Monday morning quarterbacks that are only here to insult. I’m insulted to read some of their comments too! (stunt, ploy to get website hits, etc) give me a F*&%$@ break. No pilot in his right mind would pull a “stunt”. Something out of ordinary truly happened and I hope we can figure it out for all our sake. I’m inclined to think wind shear or downdrafts also.
    This really brings back memories of my days of practicing short field and max perf takeoffs. and reading the constructive comments here and over at beechtalk.com has been very rewarding and educational. Thanks again for sharing, and don’t let the insulting idiots deter you from being the person you are. You didn’t have to post this but you’re a good person that love to help others and possibly save lives. In my short time in the cockpit, I’ve had about 3 hair raising moments. 2 with an instructor that saved my bacon and one by myself while practicing touch and go’s… I forgot to raise the flaps after touchdown so when a rotated, the nose pitched up like a bat out of hell….lol. scared the crap out of me! I got that nose down, picked up airspeed and resisted the temptation to immediately go to flaps up :-)
    Oh the other scare was my first stall recovery practice with my instructor, for some reason, I was afraid of the whole thing so at the stall, I pushed the yoke FULL forward while advancing the throttle to full which resulted in a 90 degree nose down look at mother earth…lol. I did that twice until I realized that all i needed was to release back pressure and add full power NOT full forward yoke :-)

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Stalls are quite difficult for everyone at first.

      Yeah, it’s a bit hard ignoring the know-it-alls and people that think this was some sort of stunt.

      What it was was a really messed up situation that I was lucky and blessed enough to get out of, so I can now be here and learn what went wrong.

      Thankfully I had enough training at the time to make up for the mistakes that I may have made.

  • Mark Hammond

    Chris, just listened to this on the FSBreak podcast and had to see the video. That’s what you call a close shave! The temptation to pull back on the stick must have been overwhelming. I’m very glad you and the others made it back safe!

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Me too.

      Still trying to sort out what happened here so I can fix the issue for the future.

  • Paul G.

    Hi Chris,

    I’ve posted before (C-210 PPL pilot) and let me say thank goodness you savaged a very scary situation by holding the nose down. Also thank you for being brave enough to post this on the Internet and share.

    Can you type up your Bonanza’s published short field take-off for a 50 ft obstacle from your POH for the density altitude you calculated (unless there is a digital version you can refer me to)? I’d like to compare the procedure with my plane.

    I noticed a lot a variable wind in the trees just before you turned around. I live near the Rocky Mountains and ridges can act like “wings” by creating a pocket of low pressure air as the wind comes up over the ridge. As I was not there I have no idea if this was the case.

    Where I live we get “checked out” for mountain flying. While it is not a legal requirement, we understand that mountains have their own laws especially when it comes to winds. I have a personal rule not to fly in the mountains when the winds are more than 20 knots aloft at mountain height.

    Again, thanks for sharing and continue to stay safe.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Hey Paul,
      Thanks for the comment. I’m not able to post the specs right now, as I no longer fly this aircraft. I moved to Alaska!

      Also, I have tons of mountain flying experience/training. Tons, aka, about 500 hours worth (if not more). I was based in KSLC, so that would explain why.

      Throttle On!

  • signmanbob

    Do you think someone might have been in those buildings to the left taking bets?
    I was just kidding and I know you don’t take chances with your piloting. I’m sure that as you go over the situation, you’ll find the answers to why things happened the way they did.
    When you do, please share that also.
    I’m thinking that other pilots that fly that airport regularly must know what aircraft have more problems. It might be a good idea in the future, to call an airport that you may feel doubtful about and ask the person at the desk what problems you might run into there.
    I called a small airport out west one time because I seen it in some addon scenery in FSX and had some questions about how real the scenery was because I seen helicopters parked in the scenery. The guy at the desk told me that they don’t even allow helicopters there, and he was very nice.
    Oh, by the way, how accurate is the Orbx scenery at Concrete?

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Hey Bob, it’s very accurate.

      As far as people in the buildings, we did see some people over there. Probably wouldn’t hurt to ask them some of the specifics about the wind behavior at that airport.

  • http://home/comcast.net/~kenml Ken Alger

    Just downloaded the FTX Concrete and Israel’s Farm airstrips a few days ago then read this. Im not a RW pilot but can only imagine the adrenalin rush that occurred. I read the RW PNW flying forum during the week and figured your video and blog would be interesting to those pilots. Here’s a link to what they are saying about Concrete.
    http://www.pacificnorthwestflying.com/index.php?topic=5641.new;topicseen#new

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Hey Ken,
      Thanks for very much for that link. Sounds like those guys have their own things to say. I don’t have time to go through all of it. Were there any guys that are from or around that airport that talked about wind behavior?

  • Frank Stutzman

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but it appears to me that at about 1:15 in I can see a windsock off to the right that is showing a left quartering tail wind.

    I don’t know what kind of Bonanza you are in or how you were loaded, but 2600 feet of is way sufficient runway for my ancient (and small engined) Bonanza given reasonable density altitude. Considering that Concrete is nearly at sea level, you should have been off the ground in about 1200 feet. At that point you had almost another 2200 feet to clear those 75 foot trees (if the data for Concrete at airnav.com is to be trusted). Should be eminently doable.

    Assuming that you didn’t indeed have a tail wind.

    Frank Stutzman
    Bonanza N494B
    Boise, ID

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      Frank,
      Thanks for the note.
      Right now I don’t have the full HD image, but in the coming days I can upload the windsock picture. It is in fact a headwind, albeit, left quartering.

      Also, I’m assuming at this stage that the issue was a premature liftoff, which put me well below the drag curve, with the addition of a very strong and shearing left crosswind once getting into the open (just second after takeoff)

      Naturally, this combination was near deadly, regardless of the short field takeoff procedure.

  • Rick Armellino

    Chris,
    Glad you made it … I think you may have picked up a tailwind during liftoff and the initial climb, or took off into a column of descending air.

    I’ve got over 5,000 total time and over 30 years flying single engines, and had two instances during cruise in beautiful clear VFR weather where a fairly large sized (maybe 2 or 3 miles in diameter) column of descending air resulted in powering up and losing a bunch of airspeed in order to maintain altitude. Rare, and wierd stuff …..

    On another subject – could you describe your in-cockpit camera and sound system? It’s the best I’ve seen (and heard) and lacks the annoying prop strobe effect. Thanks.

    • http://www.flyaoamedia.com/ Chris Palmer

      I don’t think it was quite a tailwind, but I think it sheared to a very strong crosswind. I’ll show the video of that later. Pretty intense stuff…

      It was a very weird situation, one that I had never faced before. I could have done better with the technique, come to find out (did what I knew at the time) but there was also an environmental issue.

      The setup is a 5DMKII simply placed on the glareshield. It’s hooked with a sound cable you can get at http://www.aircraftspruce.com. Simple setup!

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